… how do i best get lost?
Cheating.
Out. And in.
How do I cheat myself in somewhere? Who’s going to tell me that’s the case.
It depends on how you are trying to get lost. Or is it actually the opposite? Is it a place, or a headspace? Where is the difference really? Or rather... how do they merge... inform each other? They do merge, but one leads to the other. How do you map a headspace leading to a space? How do you map a space leading to a headspace? Is that regarding questions of... movement or time or perception? Taken by what? Isn’t it our intent to lose ourselves in the process? That would be assuming we "have had" ourselves aka there was something to lose to begin with...Im getting lost already, in the best possible sense. :-)I think we have a sense of self, a core identity, and the notion of relinquishing control is a conscious choice to try to lead us away from said control. Is there a difference / what’s the difference in the "how" depending on which direction we are taking this in... are we taking it... that might be misleading... which direction we are being taken... from different directions. If you want to get lost in a space, you have to lose your sense of surroundings.
Relinquishing, as well as the fact of not knowing the word, is a great place to get lost... Getting a feeling, getting an idea even. And want to carry it with me - just as a term... to fall into and stumble with. The anachronistic method of dialogue is a great way to get lost in our thoughts. Hopefully I’m not breaking the fourth wall here. Damned be the first person to erect a wall - and more so the first person who believed them. ;-)
WHERE ARE WE? I am legitimately lost.
I love how my hands are not quick enough for my thoughts. Well, rather my thoughts are not quick enough for my thoughts. :) Lost in my own head already. I think its enjoyable to recognize the rate limiting steps of communication, the bottlenecks of human interface. Or in both of yours. You mentioned time. Memories are not to be lost in time, but I think searching them can make you lose where you are at in the present. I like the though - the feeling this evokes on the other hand is disorientation. Is it scary for either of you to get lost in certain ways? Is the plunge intimidating? The chemical moment before the jump? When doing the project on getting lost in NYC the mornings were the hardest. The moment before leaving. Every day anew. Obviously, nothing was going to happen. Obviously, I always had a cellphone with me in a megacity. Obviously, most of it was in my mind - only some in the body. And yet - I would have given a lt for not trying. not sure what Laura would say from a dizziness perspective. For me the not-immediacy is the most intimidating thing. Knowing I will have been lost. Not being aware of the moment. Its escaping me already while it is happening - and then I am through the wormhole. I never succeed getting lost on purpose, it feels forced. Does the process have to be self-reliant? Can you trust in another to help you get lost? Or does that defeat the purpose?
When was the last time you allowed someone to get you lost? ...to make you lose yourself. Who are they with then if you have lost yourself? But sometimes there are moments I am off the track. And even this was the "aim" somehow, I am trying to get back to the main road, I am trying to orientate myself immediately. Especially in some abandon areas or in case it is getting dark. Gendered behavior? Gendered behavior for sure. In a large place, gendered behaviors are always a consideration, and some freedoms are lost for some. On the other hand, if everything is at your disposal - do you ever get lost? Omnipresent control of your environment... But to be true, I never lived or have been in a megacity (like New York or Buenos Aries). One time I went to Shanghai, that was it. My first and only time out of Europe. New York is a headspace for me. It was a headspace and the most confusing space I have ever been until I became oriented here. My disorientation in NYC is hitting me... remotely. It’s funny that mental maps can have that effect on us. Thinking of where and the way I walked 13 years ago... I never would today. ...while today i probably could at less risk. Still happening that someone local I am with encourages us to "move just a little slower..." - and I have no idea of / no feeling for where the irritation comes from. Not a layer I am able to read. For me it is really easy to get lost with a local. Walking with someone from A to B and one person’s knows the way by heart. Mental maps again... knowing by heart. What part of your heart? I know this street by grief. This corner makes sense to me by love. Anger took me from here to there the last time I walked it. We are taking this street, and this street and the metro. Than up again to the street, left, right, left, ... I am following, I am amazed by the impressions, and I am not paying attention to the road we are taking. A guided trip through unknown lands, seems the easiest route in terms of spatial lost-ness. Relinquishing control by placing trust in another. If I place trust in you you'll carry it away and then I am lost between all the places and people where my trust is. And all I am left with is someone else’s trust? And new sights of course. What if they take you to your desired location? And you’re only lost along the way. Depending on how lost I get on the way... Will I be able to recognize my desired location as desired even? Or will I have changed... too much... In ways that change the destiny too much. Seems prudent, but wouldn’t the effects be different? I feel that your challenge of attempting to get lost yourself is rooted in the very same conundrum of orientation, a natural human response to acclimate to your environment, that or protecting the mind and body. Is that fair to assume? Is it important for our orientation that the streets are starting to
be filled with stories, or are connected to some stories, experiences? We are gaining orientation because we start to live and to connect So how do we disconnect? Is it through intent to unlearn, reprogram, recondition ourselves by adjusting our perspective? Just jumping back in there... rather here... glitch... no perspective... I am seeing a word. not even a word...
I lost the ability to spin around. When I started the project, I felt the thrill and I did it without knowing what will come, what I could expect. I never expected a result. No result at all? Or just not a certain result? Now ... i am feeling that i must formulate methodologies; being an expert; producing art, dance, whatever. And I start to spin around, and I am getting sick immediately. That’s what I wanted from the beginning but now it feels like "i am losing it". Unlearning? Freudian typo was onleading... Reminds me of memories... The hard part of losing memories. Harder than creating them? Memories to be had. I am losing the only ability I had as an artist. You feel as if that were your only ability? I am getting lost through a project about getting lost. Now who is breaking the fourth wall. I am always carrying a box of fourth wall around me. Is the process in the hunt and formulaic determination in the best way to get lost? Fine to get lost - if you have a direction...
What part of your heart? - I never stressed a question before. But I like this one. When did you last imagine the organ? Place of it in your body... bloody, red, funny feel of musculous meat. I like the fact that when the Egyptians were embalming the dead, they would scoop the brain out and throw it away, thinking the heart is where memories and life were contained. When I am on my way to get lost, the heart also reacts. It shakes a bit and confuses the brain. Where I come from I call that the amygdala, but don’t let me rob you of the more romantic notions. I’ve gotten to a strange, detached place where I see most experiences as purely chemical. Amygdala - would love to google it. I intended to do the same. But i decided to stay with the unknowingness (does this word exist in English? And later when we in a different context rediscover the term it will overwrite the meaning. Render it untrue. Although it had been what it was until then. Probably ;)). While really I don’t... cause whatever it is will not be as rich as what it is in my head... given I am not being able to grasp it. Its like the hands too slow... I don’t want to reach the destination (gosh, I do). I am going to linger a little more on the path of getting to it. And get carried away. And tomorrow when I dare to look it up despite the disappointment it might carry I will already have forgotten what it is called. And then a vague notion of Amygdala will stay with me. Amygdala - that sounds amazing and mysterious to me. Even better than some romantic notions about a <3 being troubled. Not the Jane Austin way of thinking (with kind respect for her writing). The word Amygdala is now taking on a new meaning for me as it loses its original definition. This is incredible. I very well know the meaning of the word, but as you continue to describe it in such a fantastical mystery, the word gains and loses meaning, more nebulous now. Does for me as well. Probably in very different ways. Well in order not to spoil it for either of you, lets just call it a headspace. But thinking about the heart as a muscle, about something made of flesh and blood and strings and nerves. It gives me thrills. It is harder to think when the heart is troubled. I have picked up hiking for the first time since moving to the alps. Hard to think in a good way when doing that. Guess that’s my people make their minds wander in meditation. How do you get lost when your body is quarantined during a pandemic? Every damned day. So far, there was not one single moment during this pandemic where I was lost. It bothers me and that’s a fucking privilege. With everything around you being unstable can you even allow yourself to try to get lost? To be crucially honest to you, I wished somehow that I would have experienced the Pandemic more intensively. The grass is always greener. What’s something despite grass you could want? I am lingering for the thrill. Also the reason why I am looking for ways to feel dizzy? To get lost? Someone who is honestly lost or who has to live with vertigo the whole time, would perhaps wish that it would be over. Finally. It’s funny what we long for or search for in that way, where we would trade places or experiences knowingly having not experienced something, even if the experience is negative for another. Somewhat of a time traveling paradox... We would gladly take their place and absorb their suffering just so we could live it. More true for negative experiences than positive ones. Guy Debord "The society of spectacle (however that translates to English...) When everything is mediated nothing feels real. When was the last time you tried to seriously repair something? Repair? Emotionally? I fix things all the time, but only in the physical world... Repair in despair. Repair or transform. Transformation of things are even more interesting for me. But on the other hand, every reparation is also a tiny transformation. I like breaking things or taking apart things. And taking apart things to build new things out of them. Bricolage. Bricolage- my amygdala. Amygdala just became more dynamic. Well, dynamic in a different way. It has always been dynamic. Need to destroy something to get something. Might be the old, the original thing will not be able to be restores. Tough luck. I feel like the undoing has a great amount of teaching capabilities. More than the sum of its parts. Call me destructive, but sometimes when I can’t fix something, I destroy it, and build anew. Similar to the intent of getting lost and failing. When I would not find my way back even, I am trying and trying then I would perhaps stop trying and start anew, exactly where I am finding myself in this moment. Trying to find orientation costs a lot of energy and time, except being lost and start anew is like a restart. What if every step is a restart even when staying on the path? Although... staying on the path. Ask little red riding hood how boring that is. She was so bored with it. One could say it ate her alive. But the flowers were nice. Wonder if to get flowers for grandma’s grave, they went into the same forest. Run away to NYC. You’ll get that PANDEMIC feel you’ve been looking for. We have it all, corpse trucks, drunk people at tables in the bike lane. you name it. It’s hard to have empathy for something you have not remotely experienced. How do you walk with someone when you... Metaphor is losing its meaning here. Again, a headspace for me. Still I am honest, sorry. You don’t need to be sorry. It is terrible to confess but I am living in a comfortable bubble here and I hate it. I don’t think it’s terrible. Complacency is a strong an enemy as any. The enemy is wearing an invisible cloak. Fair. Treadmilling in comfort and wishing for more. And with this decision you find yourself in the instant. The hero's journey always includes strife. I’ve had so much personal growth this year, due to some intense struggles. Our favorite part of the story is when the hero gets kicked down and has to get up again. Courage, adversity, growth. And the part where the hero realizes that luckily he brought a carrier bag. :] Then, breathing joins the game. As teenagers we used to do this hyperventilation game... made you dizzy and lost. Drugs are another easy way to get lost. Always have been to scared of my won hedonism. Leading to purity... puritanism? Not doing it. First time i met someone on drugs and they shared with me what they experienced... I was like "Hm, really? That’s what my everyday life is like... If that’s all it does..." And then my body wasn’t in line for days. Part of why I like traveling. The whole jet lag notion. Should traveling via horse... Guides, and drugs, the shortcuts. The grass is always more trampled down on the shortcuts.;}
I wanted to do something else. I wanted to have another thought. I am still stuck with my thought. And cannot even trace if it was my own... So I am stuck in someone else’s headspace. Is my amygdala your amygdala? Or is possesitivity the wrong approach here? Hahaha that’s subjective at this point. Get out of my head with right and wrong - oh that’s so cliché to say. Referencing to that its cliché is cliché. I am lost in my inner police. Abandon them. Fire them. They do not serve you. A-narchists C-are A-bout B-ooks Exactly. Way off topic. Its inside the topic. They are the topic. ...hej... no... not if we refuge to tactics instead of strategy. What topic? WHERE ARE WE? Wherever we are, we are also out of time.
I feel both lasered in and wildly into the wind.
***
... how do I best get lost
I cannot really say how you can best get lost. All I know is when I was about 20, I realized what I enjoyed about going clubbing. It was a feeling of getting lost in the haze, the sound, the music, the lights, the crowd. The moments when everything around me morphed into one weird omnipresent *thing*.
I honestly probably never went clubbing... once or twice... well, couple more times... but it was not a regular thing...
Is it a similar feeling when producing / making music? or vastly different?
I remember one special night. It is always from dusk till dawn, is not it... how cheesy... how true... I did not go out often, always too tired after a while. But this night stayed with me. We danced and then we went out, and the sun already risen. It was morning and I did not know. I lost myself in time.
I always seek those moments. flow. it is a way of getting lost, but it feels productive. Isn’t that a nice paradox...Paradoxes are also productive. they produce a tension that needs to be resolved, one way or another, or the third way. the present you with a problem and suddenly you need to act or stalemate.
The music should be like that. Time should stop. those moments are what I am doing it for. Making music in front of an audience. Getting lost in my sounds and structures. I once - in Vienna - went clubbing with someone who's way of dancing was not readable to me... when i asked about later his, the architect's, answer was “it's not on the beat... it's like running through a city... getting lost between the buildings. It's always in-between...” Always intrigued me... where exactly in music do you get lost... or through music rather...Did he closed his eyes?
some music has the power. it drags you into a maelstrom of sound, beat, rhythm and carries you on and on through a wormhole of time and space and spits you out somewhere else. In my limited experience this is a very physical process... you rub your eyes and realize that you were not "there" for the last whatever minutes. For me tiredness is important as well. I am letting go and just move, dive into music because otherwise I would fall asleep. I am deeply listening, and the sound mixes with my upcoming dreams. I am in between.
Reminds me of the quote attributed to several different people. Ghosting around my mind, too. Not even sure where to attribute it to... Brian Eno maybe? David Byrne? "Talking about music is like dancing to architecture". Maybe that architect was really lit that way. Maybe that architect (architext?) was just bullshi''' with big words... I was not there. You only can judge. If judge him, you must :) :)
Using lots of random manipulation. It is only in music that term has a positive vibe... I use a tool (a module) called "Source of Uncertainty" for my music. And that lets me do things I would not be able to do otherwise. Can you, in a couple of words... try to share the fascination? It is fascinating that music can have such a great impact on a (small) mass. Manipulating emotions, ways of moving, even thinking?
"Source of Uncertainty" - is it an improvisation module? -- it creates randomness in many ways and formats. Making it possible to contain the randomness in musical ways. I must show it to you. It is really my favorite way of getting lost.
While you are playing music, are you able to go lost? Or you always know where you are, and which step comes next?
usually, I am very lost. sometimes not even in a good way. My idea is to approach the music like I walk (hm, maybe like I used to walk) through cities that I did not know. And did that... when did that change? Are we only talking about a worldwide pandemic here? Pandemic and these days, I do not usually travel to cities alone. So, I need to find a way that works for all involved -- it is so much easier alone. non-cismale problem for a long time...yes. indeed. luckily, I was able to explore parts of cities where alone I might not have been so comfortable as a non-cismale. I was just a wimpy punk, how do punk and sensitivity corelate... foster each other...what is punk to you? What is it to you? What was it to you? What is there to hope / aspire it will (have) be(en)? I am thinking about it... to answer your question...and in general... which might be counterproductive. I am the whitest, most bourg girl, you will meet... no angry teenage years ... a narrative by others... yet... its relatable... am I ditching the question... not intending too... so I did attract the attention of aggressive drunk drugged up dudes here and there, but that is no comparison who is allowed (by who) to walk alone... to choose your own direction. more to the point: your own paste... Walk down this street. hm, that place looks interesting. Wow. look at those trees, let us go there. Hm, an alley, that's weird..." Etc. A "dérive" approach, like Guy Debord. And I am hoping that this can be interesting to the people listening, as well. When getting lost in NYC a friend had send me soundscapes as scores to get lost with. Liked that approach. Maybe because I always felt the most vital part was lost on me...The Soundscape part is great. I And I know that it often works live, but I feel like it only works every now and then for recordings. Intense queering of time... one way or the other... different though... production and reception... Co-presence... or not. That is true for me anyway.
When I listen, I do not think I get lost as much and I like to know where things are going. Or maybe I would like things to move in certain way, hoping to be surprised, hoping to be surprised ... I think about it a lot while dealing with getting lost or dizziness.
About ten or 80 years ago I got very dizzy. suddenly. It was like a loss of hearing, dizziness, and a weird feeling of derealization. Most likely an acute hearing loss. It lasted for a week, about, then slowly went away. for that time, I was unable to drive or ride a bike. everything was always slowly spinning. A very unpleasant lost-ness. Crisis. Not knowing when or what or how. any comfort in the immediacy at any point? How about the "moment after".... Is it even there? Was it... could it possibly have been....as expected... anticipated...It's a moment when everything changes. suddenly you start to think about yourself, the world in totally different parameters. through physical experience... how can we / how does one restructure the way / setup of thinking itself...It's very possible through meditation. I think. I believe. How to make it stay? Or is that not the point... the opposite... to stay in the flow... to accept to keep not knowing... having a wide-angle lens and a zoom lens. both can be valuable in the right moment. And un-learning, adaption. It anesthetized - is this the opposite of aesthetic? - ...it is not even my thought... I just borrowed it... is not it weird that for smaller operations people don't even get anesthesia, but a hyptnoticum, you live through the experience awake and with no pain killers -- but the drug lets you *forget* it every happened. Or the unpleasant details anyway. Or that is the idea. you for some time, perhaps a quite long time but then there is chance and change. Findings of new ways to move or to experience. and can you say that that happened once it happened... finite. vulnerable. Were you able to walk? How did you orientate? Walking was alright. Picking up things from the ground was a bit strange, knowing when to stop "getting up" (i.e. overshooting the tipping point) How did you move? slowly, mostly. and stayed in. Much later I broke my foot and was on crutches for 6 weeks. suddenly my range was about 500m around my house. After that I could not move, it was too exhausting. There is always this wish to be surprised, to break structures, to smile or to hesitate because you did not expect it. smile and knowingly smile how creepy is that... how hurtful is that? is it hurtful when there is a deep wish to be guided this way? how much is one or the other depending on the situation? what is the power relation...when someone knowingly smiles... I was not thinking in negative connotations. but suddenly this turned very creepy. now we should get into that knowing head and exorcise it. by asking? by laughing? by silently being next to it? by giving room? by force? because you know something that the others do not its flow. and guiding and leading are two different things for me. I know a person who cannot see. They have a seeing-eye dog. Its Blindenführhund... I would not know if to translate it with guide or lead... sometimes... the dog seems more in tune with this paradox than most people though- You "guide" someone, show sth, open sth up, being there, someone you can rely on. "Leading" is power, leading has a direction. how much time do you spend in your studio? not as much as I would like. But sooo much time. because I love doing what I do. I am reading a book about getting lost. By Rebecca Solnit. "A field guide to getting lost". It is rather inspiring. Heard about it many times... and wonder if I will ever read it during this research... however long it takes... maybe it will be the ghost in the background forever... I think having a ghost in the background is a great image. you should hire a medium or hold a séance to be able to talk to that ghost and listen.
how do I best get lost? - by following a ghost.
When I go dancing, when I enter a club, I hope to get lost. I am looking for it. Assume that is what people take drugs for? It is a special place, a club. Always loved clubs in the early morning light... romantic lost on me there... still... even given that... different passing of time in those hours... And again... question of temporality... had someone tell me about the disappointment of watching a sunrise the other day... after sleeping through the night and taking a car up the mountain... not coming from anywhere...I think I had my best club nights when I was getting lost on my own, somewhere in the music until someone came up to me and asked if he could have some of what I was on (nothing). :) And when you talk about it - who is it that knowingly nods at you?... that person who gets you. who is on the same frequency, on the same beat? Is there anything... what is there I can do to get on the same frequency as the other person here with me... Is it knowledge? Is it luck...? Can I just "tune in"? maybe it's more of a letting go. forget that there is a frequency. Forget about luck or knowledge. There is no tuning dial. just this moment in space. Floating. worm hole. being spat out. a connection is building up, a connected created by randomness. in all that chaos and disarray suddenly a face, or eyes cut through the haze and form a connection. Intimacy at its finest. That is exciting as well. I am talking about getting lost, being lost in music, and connected to the composer. But I am lost, there are some moments where I recognize that there are other people around me. I am with me and with others at the same time.
Would you say that you navigate your listeners through your music?
Who is object and who subject? I think this is a great and ambiguous question. Puppetry and object theatre do a good job in mixing that up in a good way, I find. So, does clowning. Puppetry is an inspiring concept for so much in human-machine relation (like playing a synthesizer). Who made what / who? Who is shaped like what because of who, of what? Who is the puppet? Who is the player? but we both "try" ;) And the joy is in the friction. In the failing possibly. In trying anew. the possibility of failure. very grounding. the elimination of the possibility of failure by embracing it (aka improvisation) - very uplifting... or not? depriving you of something? or really just productive? A bit like mortality.
Of what are the strings are made off? Last time you looked at a spider web closely? Never. Missing the web cause of the spider? ;-) No, you should not investigate somebody else’s houses. Should you make yourself an egg ball? tiny, like a large needle head maybe. and made from about 50 (?) little balls with a tiny baby spider in each of them. they hatched after a few days, one by one. we had the ball in a loupe glass and watched them every day but set the egg free (in a place where the birds would not find them) when they started hatching so that they could live happy spider lives. Puppeteer-like. How did your gaze change? How do you wish you had gazed upon them? ...maybe... love to watch a spider catch an insect. loved to imagine the elephant inside the snail? Last year we found a spider egg.
In Alchemy it is not so much what is inside the vials and test tubes, but what the alchemist is doing in their head. that is where the reaction happens. And when "it" happens the alchemist also smiles knowingly perhaps. or gets thrown across the room in a flash of sudden realization. SATORI! heard someone talk about alchemy in the context of artistic / performative research the other day... so the strings are the ether, connecting minds with minds. from organic to electric. sometimes making music with a complex system like that synthesizer feels like a séance with a medium. The cables are ectoplasm, and the music is the words of the medium. hard to understand or make out but open to interpretation and lost forever ... in opposite to ... being able to be retrieved... re-created... archived... copied. if you do not record them. A job I once had was being in the jury of the German championship of air guitar... very informative in terms of from organic to electric... How did that influence your artistic work? Do you have time sometimes to observe how people react? Did these observation influence some of your audience (my future recordings? mostly they influence what I do and what I am in that very moment. The way the audience reacts gives me a feeling. I claim that for my artistic work. I would like to claim it for my private encounters. It is not less true... I think it is even more true in private encounters. just less in the open / articulated. I cannot really observe, but I get a certain vibe. sometimes that comes from a small part of the audience (that one drunk in the first row?), but it changes me and my music. I often like that -- I suddenly and an obstacle. something to work / to be? with or against or around.
Is this what pedagogy being about?
how would you two describe "randomness"? What would be the German translation... Zufälligkeit? There would be the English "chance" in there... "Oh, that's random..." Or rather... let me think about randomness. and then whatever it might be in whatever different language context..."Nebensächlich" - maybe? but not in the sense of being less important.
I am reading the word, but I cannot grab it but it seems to be an interesting thought . . . Randomness is unpredictable. it is no apparent order. This is a very structured thought. I am enjoying it tremendously. it is unordered and chaotic. but there is a small chance that by chance a pattern emerges. relating to my very limited experience with minimal... when... it seems like the same... the utter excitement when you... think... to recognize something … or that there may be an underlying structure that we are just unable to see or hear or feel or smell or articulate. Let us hear it for all the senses! somehow i think about randomness as sth that did not surrounds me more as sth that frames my view, it is left and right from me ... How does it get inside you? "And then, randomness fulfills you". Could be a quote as well. What is the contrary of randomness?
Is a spider egg sth random? Staying with the trouble